Author Topic: The Creation of False Memories  (Read 3991 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cindy

  • FDR Curious
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    The Creation of False Memories
    « on: March 30, 2012, 09:48:41 PM »
    While doing some research I came across this article in an American Psychological Association (APA) journal.   “Changing Beliefs About Implausible Autobiographical Events:  A Little Plausibility Goes a Long Way” https://webfiles.uci.edu/eloftus/MazzoniLoftusKirsch01.pdf

    I would greatly appreciate feedback and thoughts on this from anyone who is/was involved with fdr.

    The experimenters wanted to study whether it was possible to implant false memories – both plausible and implausible (probable and improbable). 

    In their words, “The purpose of this study was to test the hypotheses that (a) the perceived plausibility of an event can be changed by suggestive influence and (b) when plausibility is increased, further suggestive influence can increase ratings of the likelihood that an initially implausible event has occurred.” 

    Put another way, if they could make an event appear to be more plausible, then they would enhance the likelihood that a person might come to believe it was true for them personally.

    The study concluded three things.  1)  suggestive information can increase the plausibility of an initially implausible event.  2) suggestive information can increase people’s ratings of the likelihood that the event has happened to them.  3) the information can be effective not only in increasing likelihood ratings for an event that is already plausible, but also for one that is initially implausible.

    The experimenters observed that the ‘experimental manipulations’ may be a mild version of what happens in repeated, intensive, psychotherapy sessions, in which suggestive communications lead patients to believe that implausible events have happened to them.  This part in particular, had me wondering if this is similar to Stef’s one-on-one conversations with fdr followers.   

    Elucidated

    • Kallipolis Agitator
    • FDR Authority
    • ****
    • Posts: 493
      Re: The Creation of False Memories
      « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2012, 04:56:44 AM »
      This is really interesting Cindy. You suggest the implanting of ideas by Stef. I could see how the mini articles mentioned in the study would correlate to all the posts on the fdr board. If so many people you communicate with (of a similar social group etc.) have been abused, then the plausibility of you having been abused must increase greatly. Even if a few months or years earlier you would have said it was highly implausible. Reading all the posts happens prior to the conversation with Stef in which a member is told they were abused. Makes sense.

      It would be interesting to see if a study has been done into reversing the process. I.e. to cause a person to realise that an implanted memory was false. I wonder if it would be more difficult, simply because in the first instance people are only acknowledging that they previously didn’t remember something, whereas in the reverse process they have to acknowledge that they were completely mistaken (or duped) about something.

      Not quite the same I know but; http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/



      « Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 05:21:04 PM by Elucidated »
      “Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”

      (- Albert Camus)

      Cindy

      • FDR Curious
      • *
      • Posts: 30
        Re: The Creation of False Memories
        « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2012, 02:12:39 PM »
        Quote
        Not quite the same I know but; http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/
        I think this is remarkably connected to the false memories in that once you 'own' an idea (whether implanted or not) you are loathe to give it up.  No on likes to be told they are wrong.  The 'political debate' conversation is a good example of not being able to really sway someone's opinion.

        Quote
        You suggest the implanting of ideas by Stef
        My apologies, I feel completely unqualified to suggest Stef does this as I don't know the man.  I am trying to approach this from a purely observational point of view.  After reading and listening to much FDR rhetoric and seeing what happens to many followers, this thought was rattling around in my brain for a while so I decided to research it.

        Quote
        It would be interesting to see if a study has been done into reversing the process. I.e. to cause a person to ‘unbelieve’ something they had previously been led to believe had happened
        I was wondering this as well.  Here is some of what I have found so far.  Since Dr. Elizabeth Loftus is regarded as an expert in this field and has conducted much research that was able to be replicated, I simply googled "reversing false memories - loftus".  There is a lot of research being done in the neuroscience/neurobiology and behavior field using neuroimaging.  The 2010 study, "Imaging and the reconstruction of true and false memories using sensory reactivation and the misinformation paradigms" (Stark, Okado, and Loftus)  http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/17/10/485.long] [url]http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/17/10/485.long[/url] found,

             "Overall, the results are consistent with the general view that memories are reconstructed by fragments of previously encoded
               pieces of information that are reactivated at the time of retrieval."

        and

             "Overall, true and false memories showed similar brain activation, but could be distinguished by this reactivation (sensory reactivation
               of the auditory and visual cortex during the retrieval phase).  This was true only in the early regions of the sensory cortex."
              (Stark, Okado, and Loftus)

        In other words, they were able to detect different neural images in the shorter term regarding true and false memories but as time went by these differences were not detectable.  So, it appears that once a memory is in the 'long-term' bank it might be difficult to differentiate between true and false.

        reynardthefox

        • FDR Curious
        • *
        • Posts: 9
          Re: The Creation of False Memories
          « Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 02:08:31 PM »
          In regression hypnotherapy, you are instructed to never lead the person in trance.  You can't go into it with the presumption that anyone is guilty of anything, let alone that a parent is guilty of anything. 

          This type of therapy holds that many of our current psychological ills stem from bad experiences or misunderstandings in childhood that affect our map of the world.  It may have absolutely nothing to do with abuse from an individual, it could be anything that had a big effect on you at an impressionable age.  It may not even be anything bad that happened to you. 

          In one case from Kein and Banyan, as I recall, a girl who had weight issues later in life did a regression back to childhood.  She was in a family where she felt completely overshadowed and unloved compared to her siblings.   The exception was one uncle who was always very kind to her, and would bring her candy whenever he came to visit.  She associated the candy with being cared for, and this led to her physical problems later on.

          I've never listened to any of Stefan's interviews with kids long enough to know exactly what he is doing, but I am aware that he is going into it with a preconception, so his attempts at therapy are f*cked from the outset.

          On a somewhat related and quite important note, you will find lots of interesting things come up in hypnotic regression.  Maybe 10% of them lead to events in a past life (this will vary depending on hypnotist and wording).  Others might involved disembodied spirits sharing your body, or alien abductions.

          Now, most people here will probably not believe in all 3 of these things...or at least not their being responsible for the individual's problems!  The truth is that what you think as a hypnotist doesn't mean a damn.   These events are real in some respect to the subconscious, and that is what must be addressed.

          If you accept that the therapy which could give you aliens is not always historical, then the story of being abused in some painful way as a child may not always be historical as well.   Not to mention easier to "remember" (or subconsciously and unknowingly fabricate) when you are simply mining the past in what might be a light trance state, which we enter all the time.

          Elucidated

          • Kallipolis Agitator
          • FDR Authority
          • ****
          • Posts: 493
            Re: The Creation of False Memories
            « Reply #4 on: May 10, 2012, 01:10:13 PM »
            Its taken a while for me to come back to this topic but I’ve a little more time right now so intend to get a bit more involved in things, here goes:

            As Reynard says most people would think an alien abduction highly implausible yet those who have ‘memories’ of it must have found it plausible before ‘remembering’ it. To 'remember' a complete sequence of dramatic events that never happened is extreme yet still not entirely uncommon, despite its implausibility to most people.

            Anyhow, where I’m going with this is that if the more plausible an event is to a person the more likely they are to accept a false memory of it, then it must also follow that a greater proportion of people will have false memories of more generally plausible events. (Like child abuse)

            Hope I’m making sense here

            As to the reason why they have false memories in the first place, Loftus and Palmer did some research http://www.simplypsychology.org/loftus-palmer.html into how memories can be distorted / exaggerated, by the language of the interviewer.

            Witnesses to a road accident were asked to estimate the speed of a car in a road accident. They found that the words used by the interviewer influenced the outcome. If the interviewer asked the speed they ‘smashed’ into each other, the witnesses would give a higher estimation of the speed than if they used the word bumped or hit etc. So even a well-meaning therapist could unintentionally lead a client to believe they were abused, particularly if that therapist had a preconceived idea.

            IMO a false memory of abuse could occur with an FDR member as a result any or all of the following:

            1.) Stef the wordsmith.
            My parents scolded me may become, your parents yelled & screamed at you. (I’d like to put a specific example here I may trawl round and find one later – but most people will probably be aware of an example.) Hence he turns a real but not necessarily abusive event or sequence of events, into something more sinister.

            2.)Plausibility
            The plausibility of abuse having occurred to a person is greatly increased by spending a long time on the boards where so many other people are talking about their experiences of abuse.

            3.) Conformity - compliance / internalization
            The desire to be accepted by the group leading initially to compliance but over a period of time to internalization.

            Is the acid test  – did I believe I had been abused before I ever found FDR?

            Reynard says:
            Quote
            These events are real in some respect to the subconscious, and that is what must be addressed.


            The question is though, if you have a false or distorted memory, how is to be addressed? How do you ever discover that it was false? Just dealing with the emotional problems brought on by the false belief would be like treating the symptoms without curing the disease.
            Just some thoughts…
            « Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 01:12:48 PM by Elucidated »
            “Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”

            (- Albert Camus)

            Prodigal son

            • White Knights
            • FDR Wizard
            • *
            • Posts: 820
            • I got serious
              Re: The Creation of False Memories
              « Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 10:05:05 AM »
              I think that is a very cogent and valid post. Thanks.
              I was reminded somewhat of a movie I watched recently (Capturing the Friedmans)
              This (implanting false memories or simply elevating relatively minor events to the status of despicable acts of evil) is the technique used by SM to draw in new "listeners" and keep them loyal.
              I used to enjoy the company of my parents and was always pleased to see them (I would actively seek out their company) until I became involved with FDR, after which over a period of a couple of years I gradually started to view them in a completely different and highly sinister light, eventually (inevitably) dissociating  from them entirely. The process of material reconnection (at first undertaken reluctantly for reasons connected with my own acquired family) was insufficient to dispel the mist. I was only able to snap them back into focus and view them as the kind and empathetic people they had always been once I had managed to leave the cult. I did not believe I had suffered any abuse before encountering FDR.
              I could justify my pre- to post-initiation change of mind "thanks" to Moyneuvian/Macklerian (and they are not alone) psychobabble that elevates things like boredom or irritation to the level of war crime victimhood. To a large extent I was aided in escaping from that mindset by my exposure to the science around the nature/nurture debate as presented by Steve Pinker et al. When the epistemological framework was removed, I fell to earth. However, unskeptical acolytes have proven to be impervious to such psaltery matters as scientific evidence.
              I stood up

              Prodigal son

              • White Knights
              • FDR Wizard
              • *
              • Posts: 820
              • I got serious
                Re: The Creation of False Memories
                « Reply #6 on: May 11, 2012, 10:13:51 AM »
                Due to my apparent inability to expand threads, I had only read the latest reply to this one when I posted. Sorry 'bout that. I'll work it out sooner or later.
                I stood up

                Elucidated

                • Kallipolis Agitator
                • FDR Authority
                • ****
                • Posts: 493
                  Re: The Creation of False Memories
                  « Reply #7 on: May 11, 2012, 12:14:19 PM »
                  Hey Prodigal son, that's really insightful. It would be interesting to know the time frame of your experiences, i.e. how long from first encounter with FDR until defoo, and from then until reconnection?

                  Quote
                  To a large extent I was aided in escaping from that mindset by my exposure to the science around the nature/nurture debate as presented by Steve Pinker et al. When the epistemological framework was removed, I fell to earth.


                  I'm also interested to know how you came across the relevant Pinker work. Was it by chance or were you directed to it by someone, or could it have been some subconscious doubt that led you to research?

                  I'm still thinking along the lines of my previous post in this thread and the link to research http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/ showing that pointing out to someone that their ideas are wrong, will only make them defend their position all the more. 

                  If this is the case here, then it may also go some way towards explaining -
                   
                  Quote
                  However, unskeptical acolytes have proven to be impervious to such psaltery matters as scientific evidence


                  Haven't seen Capturing the Friedmans btw
                  “Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.”

                  (- Albert Camus)

                  QuestEon

                  • Just some guy with a blog.
                  • Administrator
                  • FDR Wizard
                  • *****
                  • Posts: 616
                  • What's your opinion? I'd love to hear it!
                    • FDR Liberated
                  Re: The Creation of False Memories
                  « Reply #8 on: May 12, 2012, 12:57:26 AM »
                  This (implanting false memories or simply elevating relatively minor events to the status of despicable acts of evil) is the technique used by SM to draw in new "listeners" and keep them loyal.
                  I think you're describing two different, very important things. And I agree that they both occur at FDR.

                  When I first started researching FDR, one of the very first things I tried to educate myself about was memory. (However, I've forgotten most of it.  ;))

                  I was trying to solve the mystery of how FDR members who sometimes come from relatively normal households begin to believe they were victims of abuse so heinous they can never speak to their parents again? The first place my research led me to was the so-called False-Memory Syndrome, promoted by a group of parents who felt victimized by the book "Courage to Heal."

                  There's a lot of darkness down that corridor. The book itself was written by two women with no particular expertise in psychology and was intended as a recovery guide primarily for women who were sexually abused. Sadly, it may have been responsible for even more trauma.

                  During the '80s, women began coming forward with stories of sexual abuse--some of them including satanic rituals and other bizarre details. They had "recovered" their memories with the help of barely licensed or un-licensed hypnotherapists using exercises from "Courage to Heal."  Some of their stories were easily shown to be impossible. Others not so. Either way, families were destroyed equally. Once the accusation is made, the cloud of suspicion remains forever whether the accused is innocent or not.

                  Some of John Bradshaw's work has the same basic philosophy. If you have the feelings of an abuse victim, the memories may be buried. He also provides exercises that help you "reflect" on it until the memories come.

                  To me, that's the extreme end. Some of it may go on at FDR. I know the continual reflection on the "wounded inner child" occurs and I don't think that leads anywhere healthy. I have seen the occasional post from members who "just know" they were abused at a very young age, but can't remember any details (yet).

                  Let's dial back from that extreme stuff a bit, though. I've quoted this passage about memory a couple times on the blog. I really like the way it describes how memory works. It's from The Boy Who Was Raised as a Dog: And Other Stories from a Child Psychiatrist’s Notebook Child Psychiatrist’s Notebook, by Dr. Bruce Perry:

                  Quote from: Bruce Perry
                  We know today that, just like when you open a Microsoft Word file on your computer, when you retrieve a memory from where it is stored in the brain, you automatically open it to “edit.” You may not be aware that your current mood and environment can influence the emotional tone of your recall, your interpretation of events and even your beliefs about which events actually took place. But when you “save” the memory again and place it back into storage, you can inadvertently modify it. When you discuss your memory of an experience, the interpretation you hear from a friend, family member, or a therapist can bias how and what you recall the next time you pull up that “file.” Over time, incremental changes can even lead to the creation of memories that did not take place. In the lab, researchers have been able to encourage test subjects to create memories of childhood events that didn’t happen: some as common as being lost in a mall, others as extreme as seeing someone possessed by a demon.

                  This seems true to me. Yes, there may be false memory creation at FDR but there doesn't have to be to completely change one's perspective about their past. It's simply a matter of recasting remembered events in a different light. As you say, it's a matter of "simply elevating relatively minor events to the status of despicable acts."

                  If FDR is a faith-based organization, one of its most sacred rituals is Revealing the Motive behind parental actions. Emails, letters, interactions, and past events between FDR members and family members/friends are continually served up to the congregation for review and interpretation.  Each line or comment is scrutinized to reveal the manipulation or selfish desire behind it. And it becomes re-saved in the member's memory as part of a re-created history--same events/completely altered meaning. Molyneux used to play a much greater public role in this, but his participation is mostly behind the scenes now.

                  I have another Molyneux example (I can't remember if I published it yet--I have so many partly finished posts!) where he inadvertently demonstrates how he has planted his adult emotions into the memory of himself as a child and how that memory must now continue to evolve as time goes on. Whatever his childhood self was actually thinking at the time is probably forever lost.

                  One of my articles traced the example of how Molyneux slowly altered the meaning behind the events in Christina's life. Christina grew up believing her childhood was happy and her parents were loving. But with Molyneux constant chipping away at her perception, she slowly changed her self-image first to abuse victim and then to survivor. Without creating a single new memory, Molyneux (according to his description) destroyed Christina's family.

                  I don't know if it's my imagination, but there seems to be a growing number of people slipping out of the FDR environment these days and, for many of them, their first post-FDR step is trying to understand how they were influenced into such radically different thoughts about their family and friends. I think the Revealing the Motive ritual is about 80% of that...

                  -QE
                  It isn't about winning the debate. It's about the truth.

                  Argent

                  • FDR Authority
                  • ****
                  • Posts: 484
                    Re: The Creation of False Memories
                    « Reply #9 on: May 12, 2012, 01:45:41 AM »
                    Spot on, QuestEon.

                    Your post reminded me of when I poked my nose into the Flat Earth Society's forums some years back. Seems it's still going strong with a new crop of people. I remember I suddenly found myself thinking: "Man, so many people are talking about this with so much conviction? Maybe there's something to it..."

                    I think that when a group of people congregate, they can reinforce just about any belief in each other.  The strong personality of Stefan is magnetic for some, and they jump in and vie for his attention/approval by parroting his stuff back to him (as touched on by Mr. C the other day). Every newcomer to the "conversation" sees/hears dozens of people affirming Stefan's philosophy and worldview, and very few countering voices. First the stuff he's espousing seems plausible, and then, the deeper they get into it and the more it's reinforced by their peers, the more it seems like it's the only way to think. The time they spend away from FDR may even serve to reinforce--rather than temper--their new found views, because Stefan has an airtight explanation for disagreement with the FDR principles: it's put forth by un-aware, corrupt, evil, statist child-abusers (to paraphrase). If you can stay in FDR-mode 24/7, you'll have great stories of outrage and recalled childhood trauma to share with fellow listeners, and with Stefan. And if ever the cognitive dissonance ever gets too great, Stefan is just a skype call away.

                    Prodigal son

                    • White Knights
                    • FDR Wizard
                    • *
                    • Posts: 820
                    • I got serious
                      Re: The Creation of False Memories
                      « Reply #10 on: May 12, 2012, 04:21:15 AM »
                      Thanks for the replies.
                      It took nearly two years from my first encounter until I “had the conversation”. It would almost certainly have come earlier, but I was living very far from my parents and saw them only rarely. The disconnection then proceeded for another year, when it was interrupted by force of circumstance (I was still accumulating evidence against my parents). The reconnection proper, which was a gradual process, started about six months after that. I only managed to talk freely about the fact that I had become involved in a cult, and make my apologies (I have been eating crow for some time now) a few months later. As I stepped back from the organisation (initially with the intention of supporting it from a distance) its true nature gradually became clearer, as did the depth of my own insanity in the past three years.
                      I found Pinker thanks to the advocacy of another ex PK who had started to apply rather more scepticism than preferred by SM to his assumptions in the area of psychology. I recall feeling most uncomfortable when I first encountered this heresy. I suppose I realised where it was likely to lead. I’m not sure that being alerted to Pinker et al would have been sufficient in itself if I had not found myself in strong disagreement with a couple of positions adopted by SM. When I attempted to offer alternative explanations I was surprised by the way the ranks closed around the leader to create an impenetrable barrier and all my objections were dismissed using whatever piece of furniture was at hand as a cudgel or fence. This infuriated me, and made me more receptive to alternative views.
                      I had plenty of subconscious or indeed conscious doubt about the organisation from day one, but I had thrown in my lot and I was marching in lockstep with the prevailing dogma. I read and FBd “The Backfire Effect” as soon as I saw it. This is an area of great interest to me. One of the things I am having the greatest trouble dealing with since escaping is coming to terms with my own gullibility.
                      Finally, I agree with QuestEon (and thanks for this excellent resource): it’s not so much about planting of memories as it is about revisiting them. I and others have been encouraged to deliberately exaggerate any harm to which I thought might have been subjected. The justification given is that we tend to normalise abuse, so to re-experience the childhood horror and thus find an illusory path to redemption we need to create grotesque caricatures of our “abusers” and almost inflict them on our unconscious mind as it squirms to resist. Stefan implies (there is probably a podcast of relevance here, but I simply cannot bear to hear another syllable) that to have vivid dreams of violence like the ones he documents in his secret magic book “crazy talk”, shown only to the most privileged initiates, is the sign of true healing.
                      I stood up

                      Anarchist

                      • White Knights
                      • FDR Wizard
                      • *
                      • Posts: 636
                      • Rarr!!
                        Re: The Creation of False Memories
                        « Reply #11 on: May 12, 2012, 10:54:48 AM »
                        This seems true to me. Yes, there may be false memory creation at FDR but there doesn't have to be to completely change one's perspective about their past. It's simply a matter of recasting remembered events in a different light. As you say, it's a matter of "simply elevating relatively minor events to the status of despicable acts."

                        If FDR is a faith-based organization, one of its most sacred rituals is Revealing the Motive behind parental actions. Emails, letters, interactions, and past events between FDR members and family members/friends are continually served up to the congregation for review and interpretation.  Each line or comment is scrutinized to reveal the manipulation or selfish desire behind it. And it becomes re-saved in the member's memory as part of a re-created history--same events/completely altered meaning. Molyneux used to play a much greater public role in this, but his participation is mostly behind the scenes now.

                        I have another Molyneux example (I can't remember if I published it yet--I have so many partly finished posts!) where he inadvertently demonstrates how he has planted his adult emotions into the memory of himself as a child and how that memory must now continue to evolve as time goes on. Whatever his childhood self was actually thinking at the time is probably forever lost.


                        Yes, this is very important. As far as understanding things, a few days ago, I bought an interesting book (Subliminal by Leonard Mlodinow) about the actual, neurobiology-based unconscious (rather than the Jungian or FDR-style one). It has a chapter on memory.

                        Except for a very few people with photographic memories, people only remember the gist of things. If you try to remember what I've written here a few minutes from now, you might remember what I was getting at, but you probably won't remember my exact wording or maybe even anything close to it.

                        Though this is unclearly realized when you learn things (you actually want to write things in your own words...so that for some magical reason you remember it better), it isn't realized with memories of events because your brain will automatically fill in missing details without your awareness. Because the illusion of detailed memories is so strong, eyewitness testimony still has enormous credibility in courts, even though research has shown for decades that it's extremely unreliable.

                        New details can be introduced later in a few ways. The missing details can be filled in from other sources. For instance, if a witness is shown photos of people in a police lineup, a photo that looks kind of close to the attacker can be remembered and used to fill in missing details when remembering the actual crime. Another way is that, when a memory is remembered, it is no longer stored in their brain. It has to be re-stored. During this time, it can be altered.

                        From that, I've come up with a theory of how Stef and other bad therapists might work.

                        It's not that they implant memories or expect you to come up with new ones (though they don't do much to discourage recovered memories). They set up other sources for filling in missing details, like plausible frameworks for reality, and they have you remember things so that the memories are malleable while they pushily present (Stef's rudeness knows few bounds outside of preserving his image) their own interpretations of how you secretly felt and what your parents secretly thought. They also do gaslighting things like show sympathy for things you didn't think you needed sympathy for, even after you tell them that.

                        Dreams, which I'd guess are used to assist with the day's learning, are very important because they will show FDR themes in them while you're still trying to learn those themes and misinterpreting them as cries for help from an unconscious you were forced to stop listening to when it spoke directly to you which then stops giving you those dreams when you finally start accepting what it's supposedly trying to tell you is a nice way of confusing things.

                        They want to bring your memories up over and over so that any part of the 'evidence' that might lead you to ambiguity with regard to what they say is eventually eased away. This is when 'healing' happens: you're finally 'healthy' enough to see what for-sure happened there and to feel your surely-there secret feelings that you once for-sure had. Any contradictions with past journal entries or whatever can be put down to the effects of unhealed trauma in the past.

                        Argent

                        • FDR Authority
                        • ****
                        • Posts: 484
                          Re: The Creation of False Memories
                          « Reply #12 on: May 12, 2012, 11:55:37 AM »

                          They want to bring your memories up over and over so that any part of the 'evidence' that might lead you to ambiguity with regard to what they say is eventually eased away. This is when 'healing' happens: you're finally 'healthy' enough to see what for-sure happened there and to feel your surely-there secret feelings that you once for-sure had. Any contradictions with past journal entries or whatever can be put down to the effects of unhealed trauma in the past.

                          Ahh, yes. The key to happiness is going over and over your memories until all inconsistency and uncertainty is gone, and your past is cast in pure black and white. That is, a child of light playing in a bright field of hopes and dreams. The happy scene is marred by shadows, and who is casting those shadows? Two parents with souls as black as coal.

                          Argent

                          • FDR Authority
                          • ****
                          • Posts: 484
                            Re: The Creation of False Memories
                            « Reply #13 on: May 12, 2012, 12:04:08 PM »
                            Stefan implies (there is probably a podcast of relevance here, but I simply cannot bear to hear another syllable) that to have vivid dreams of violence like the ones he documents in his secret magic book “crazy talk”, shown only to the most privileged initiates, is the sign of true healing.

                            Oh, intriguing! What's the premise of the book? (as if I can't guess!)

                            Prodigal son

                            • White Knights
                            • FDR Wizard
                            • *
                            • Posts: 820
                            • I got serious
                              Re: The Creation of False Memories
                              « Reply #14 on: May 12, 2012, 12:37:20 PM »
                              ...They also do gaslighting things like show sympathy for things you didn't think you needed sympathy for, even after you tell them that.

                              This is an excellent point. This occurred to me in the early days and I learned how to do it. All the "serious" members do this. I have only just realised that it is indeed gaslighting.

                              Oh, intriguing! What's the premise of the book? (as if I can't guess!)

                              No premise I think - and indeed no book other than in SM's mind. It seems that the great work consists of the nothing more than his scribblings made during his period of therapy, which is often phrased as a sort of descent into madness. The religious parallels are strong here. He has said, however, that he is considering publication. He clearly thinks this is potentially a great work but that the world is not ready for it (like everything else he has written to date).
                              I stood up